00:03
All right. Welcome Carrie to the Solid in the Saddle podcast. We're so glad that you were able to come on and thank you for joining us, joining us this morning.
00:12
Well great. Thank you for having me and I'm looking forward to visiting with you today.
00:16
Awesome. So I would like you to just kind of begin with introducing yourself. Tell us about your background, your background in horses, and just give the audience a little bit of a, an introduction to yourself.
00:31
Okay, great. So I'm born and raised in Montana, grew up in Central Montana and my family ranch, we ran cows and farmed in Central Montana, but then also my folks outfitted. So my dad was one of the very first licensed concessionaires in Yellowstone National Park. And so my summers were spent with a string of mules on the back country of Yellowstone National Park and the greater Yellowstone area. We ran probably about a, oh gosh, a hundred heads of horses and mules between the outfitting. And then when my folks started in the, what was it, 88 I guess is when they built the guest ranch. We had a guest ranch in the Upper Madison and was capacity of 30 guests. And then I think there was about 15 crew. And so we did all the horseback riding as well as then of course fishing. But at that point, like yeah, around a hundred head of horses and mules.
01:20
Oh my gosh. And then about the time I got in high school, my family both has background with race horses, both my parents and they kind of got away from it. And I, you know, was rodeoing in high school, junior rodeoing and high school rodeoing. And my folks went down to Oklahoma to the Heritage Place sale one year and came back with a bunch of horses and one they decided there was one colt, we call him LFR Johnny Re, he's still in the place, he'll be 30 in February, but they were gonna sell him as a yearling. And dad decided, no, let's run him. And as the saying goes, the rest is history. 'cause that little horse got the bug back in him. He won 10 races, I think between 200 and 200 yards, 870 yards and started the craze. And that was like, I guess when that horse was born in 95.
02:06
And so from then, then my folks really got back into the horse racing side of things and we're doing all that in the ranching outfitting. And when I was, you know, ever since I was a little girl just growing up, you know, veterinarians played such an important role and I have to fond memories, even in Stanford of old Doc Nordell and Doc G coming over working on something. And I always knew I wanted to be a veterinarian. So I pursued that. Went to undergrad at the University of Idaho and they had a three plus one program. So if you got all your prerequisite done in three years and you got into vet school, your first year vet school would transfer back for your BS degree. So, and when I was at University of Idaho, the other challenge was in Montana there was no witchy funding, which allows in-state tuition at Washington and Colorado.
02:54
So I kind of had to apply at large. And I was fortunate enough, I got into vet school at Louisiana State down in Baton Rouge. And that was a culture shock for this little rural Montana girl going down to the, the bayou and learning that winter, even though we get annoyed with it, is good 'cause it kills things that we don't have up here. Like I had never heard of horses not being able to sweat or all these weird fungal diseases. Right. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I went to vet school in Louisiana and had a blast. Learned a lot of great things down there. And then upon graduating, actually practiced in Alaska for quite a few years before coming back to Montana. And then after about, oh, it was about 10 years of general practice, I kind of got a little disheartened with like general practice and knowing I didn't wanna own a practice, but I knew there had to be something a little better, especially for equine athletes as far as like prevention.
03:52
So I started to pursue kind of, you know, I'm gonna, it's integrative at that point, it was kind of considered alternative, but it's really an integrative medicine looking at acupuncture and chiropractic and really looking at, you know, trying to prevent things, right? Not trying to say, okay, great, now we have a problem, let's just stick a steroid in a joint and keep going. Like why did that horse need that? And so I started to do that and one of my favorite quotes is by a veterinarian out of France, French veterinarian by the name of Jeanmarie. And I like, this is the heart and soul of what I believe is that, you know, horses rarely, one bad step rarely equals lameness. It happens usually lameness is because of 10,000 not so good ones, right? And so how can we keep our athletes moving effectively and appropriately so we can minimize that wear and tear on their body? And so that's when I've kind of pursued that. And that's all I do now, really is just the acupuncture, chiropractic work. And still, you know, my folks still run some race horses and so,
04:56
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for that background. I did not know all of that. And I think that that's so cool that you had a really great foundational background practicing for 10 years and then you kind of were able to niche down into the thing that you're most passionate about, which now you get to bring to Southwestern Montana. And we're so lucky to have you. So we're gonna get into that a little bit actually. Let's, why don't you just tell us about the two university and how you help the horses through acupuncture and chiropractic work?
05:30
Okay, well, when I decided to pursue acupuncture as, there's only two places in the country in the United States that is a veterinarian, you can go get certified in acupuncture and one's at Colorado State and one's down at QI University, which is associated with the University of Florida's vet school program. And you know, and I'm not gonna pick on Colorado state here, I don't mean to have this sound this way, but at CSU it's very, they try to take it, make it very scientific. Like this is what this, this is this. And yes, there is a lot of science behind acupuncture, how it works. I mean, even on the human health side, the Institute of Medicine, you know, has come out, you know, back in the nineties with things that we know acupuncture is effective for. And there's more and more literature showing, you know, the effectiveness of it for certain, for a lot of issues across human and animal health.
06:18
But there still is a art to it. And at the Q University, Dr. Huang, she, he is like a fourth generation acupuncturist from China, is a US citizen now, but you know, he, you know, that is where it came from, right? Is China. And it's also being, being taught by somebody who is this generational acupuncturist and herbalist I thought was extremely important. You know, yes, there's all the science, they definitely present all the science and they're doing amazing work on looking at different points and the science and, and all of that. But there is that art piece that you can learn with that eastern side. And so that's where I started the acupuncture. And I started, I got certified a long time ago, but then I decided, wow, they offer a master's in traditional Chinese veterinary medicine. And so I've completed all the courses, but my thesis, which I'll start on this spring in order, which is your research project.
07:12
So I'll be working on that. And I, I'm kind of, I, I think I know what I'm gonna work on, but I haven't quite got it all there. But I'll finish up my, so I actually have a master's in traditional Chinese veterinary medicine. And when I was down there, they also do a lot of integrative work and they do the chiropractic work, or really, and I should say this as veterinarians, we technically can't use the word chiropractic. This goes back to human chiropractors and kind of a lawsuit that was, you know, it's kind of all about the policy things, even though that's what it is on the veterinary side, we call it medical manipulation. And so, so I got certified in that as well. And they have a great program there with another wonderful veterinarian named Carla Pastor, who I think is a great mentor.
07:56
She practiced general practice for years on a track practice. And she kind of all, that's all she does now. But it's great looking at, it's really focusing on the biomechanics of how, how the horse moves, how do the joints move, and when the things aren't moving appropriately, you know, what are the implications of that, right? And how does the axial skeleton affect the appendicular skeleton? And so it's just a great way it makes, and it definitely changes. And all the years of all the horses, you know, lame horses, I've looked at what you, what I learned during those courses definitely was something we don't really learn in vet school. Like really looking a little bit deeper and how that horse is moving and at certain, you know, especially their pelvis, their head, their neck, you know, there's normal gait motions and yeah, when we think of a lame horse, yeah, we get a head bob and yeah, that's absolutely important and a hip hike, but there's subtle things you can detect before it gets to that point if you take the time to really study that movement and how that horse is moving.
08:53
And that's one thing that we really spend a lot of time on down there at, at Chi. And so it, it is just a great program. They, what I like about it, all the faculty, they're all practitioners. They all, you know, have had very, very successful traditional equine veterinary practices that, you know, that are doing this work more. And when you talk about central Florida, it is the horse mecca of the world. When you're talking Ocala Wellington, you know, it's, so, it's, you know, being around that caliber of horses and also those kind of pro you know, professors, faculty is pretty amazing. They push you and it's just a great program. And looking at it and, and using the science. 'cause I think sometimes, you know, even in my, you know, my field, my colleagues, when you say, oh, acupuncture, people're like the voodoo, right?
09:39
And it's like, oh no, it's anything. But, but that, and so that's the other thing is like, yeah, not only are we doing this, you know, in this institution really is pushing how to do it, but it's also that research component and really doing those, those research studies that are proving the efficacy of it. And there's more and more every day that are coming out around that. And just the importance of it and how well it integrates, right with our Western medicines, because as saying goes, you have a gunshot wound, you probably don't wanna acupuncture needle, right? So you, you can't, you can't do away without the western and the Eastern, but integrative for patients that integrative practice is huge to keep our athletes healthy and sound and doing their jobs.
10:19
I could not agree more. I think, you know, being on the horse end and the human end, that integrative approach is really the best way to, to keep an animal or a human at top performance. So that brings me to my next point or my next question for you. Tell us your favorite recovery story of a horse where you used manual manipulation and acupuncture. What did that treatment look like? Maybe what was the diagnosis and then what was the result that was able to come out of that?
10:48
This is probably one of my favorite stories ever. And this was a horse, a high performing barrel horse before the horse was diagnosed with EPM and the horse got EPM and as we know, even caught quickly, right? EPM and treated with appropriate western medicine and having that appropriate diagnosis still cannot have the best outcomes for an athlete, right? And this horse was diagnosed by a very, very good internist, you know, put on the treatments and the horse got about, I don't know, 80, 85%, but he still wasn't a hundred percent. And this veterinarian put these clients in contact with me and were like, you know, try it, right? Because we've, you know, western medicine has kind of done what it can do for this horse. And this horse was competing at the PRCA level competing at, you know, college rodeo level. And so, and I will never forget, I went out there to see this horse, this big gorgeous horse.
11:45
But he just, you know, I, I'm a firm believer in looking at their eye, you look at the horse's eye and that tells you all you need to know about that horse. The horse's eye was just, just wasn't a happy horse, just dull, just didn't feel well. And so we started acupuncture treatment, put him on some herbal therapies and he still had some mild neurologic, you know, remnants from the EPM, you know, with things. And so we started on that and he didn't care about the needles, whatever, he didn't even need anybody to hold him. Started working hard on him and I, but I also knew that this horse would be one of those horses when he got to feeling better, he was gonna tell us 'cause he was gonna be a horse that didn't like needles, right? Like I already, you knew that's where this was going with him, but I'm like, when that day comes, it's gonna be a great day.
12:28
So we worked hard on him. It was like, I don't know, about a couple, couple three months and you know, he could start to really see the improvement. So then it was like, all right, let's go ahead and get him adjusted, make sure we can adjust him, make sure now that we're getting that neurologic function back where it needs to be. Making sure we adjusted him so all his joints were moving appropriately. And then to start an exercise routine for this horse. 'cause a horse had had some kind of SI issues before the EPM too. So just making sure we keep him going. And long of the short of this, this, this horse went on, the owner missed all the fall college rodeos senior year and that horse went on that spring to win enough at those spring rodeos in order to qualify for the college national finals.
13:12
Ran fourth that year in the finals, went to our circuit finals and qualified for the American semi-finals. So to me that is just one of the coolest stories ever. And I work on the horse still, we do acupuncture, but with a laser he doesn't like needles loves being adjusted, right? So it's just, it was so cool because at that point it was, I think the owners as well as the referring veterinarian was like, oh, I just, I don't know, right? We got him as far as we can get him, you know, with the Western meds. And so to see him go on and compete at a high level is just, it was just one of the coolest cases ever. So that's probably my favorite one. So yeah. And that one, and then like the other thing I love, these are not as big a high profile, but it's funny, you know, being in South Montana, right?
13:57
All the ranching families, I work on a lot of ranch horses from, you know, like, like my father was kinda the same way when I started all this, you know, the crusty old cowboy, like whatever. Now it's like, right, I worked on all his race horses, I work 'em all the time. But even some of these old ranchers that you never would think like want their horses adjusted and have things done to 'em. And now I see these group of ranch horses every year that we keep 'em going and performing and it's fun, right? Because those horses work hard. And so I love, I think those are success stories too. Keeping those horses that work hard every day, happy and healthy and working for their owners doing their job. So it's a lot of fun.
14:32
It really shows how dynamic the treatment can be from anything from like a, like a working horse that's pulling calves or roping bulls, that kind of thing to the highest level of performance barrel horse that there is. And I just, I love that story. That's actually how I found you. And we'll tell that story a little bit later because I want to talk a little bit about just the importance in keeping older horses sound. But what is the most unique thing that acupuncture can help horses with? So we've talked about the EPM recovery, we've talked about some ranch horse manipulation. What about something that surprised you that a horse that you were able to help a horse with?
15:17
Well, this is the funny part. I was used to do a lot of work at the race backside of the racetrack at Prairie Meadows. And what I loved about it, and these are the horses that I would love, and I have a couple crazy stories with some thoroughbreds where when I was trying to get clients, there's a scan you can do and basically you're stimulating acupuncture points and they're associated with certain body parts. And so whether it be a foot, a knee, an ankle, right? The hawk, the hip, the stifle, and you know, a lot of, and it's really accurate for areas that are bothering horses. And it's, there was a thoroughbred little Philly there, like a 3-year-old that they were gonna turn out and this trainer said, you know what? Got nothing to lose. Why don't you go through her? Like, 'cause a bunch of people had already gone through her, she'd had things X-rayed she'd had, had things done.
16:06
And I go in there and it's like, woo, I hit the acupuncture points, I get a video of this for her hawks and woo, that mare was sore on the one side like sore, sore. So we were went ahead and adjusted her because if the pelvis isn't moving appropriately, there's all those nerves that come out for that hind leg can be get some inflammation and can cause some, some of those points to be a little reactive. So we adjusted her, did some acupuncture on her and the mayor. I said, give her 48 hours, then go ahead and gallop her, see how she feels and like, wow, this Philly feels good. Maybe we won't turn her out for the year. And that Philly went, went on to win a stakes race, right? And so, oh my gosh. So it's fun because I, I love, what I really love is these horses that, and you know, and this is nothing against any of my colleagues.
16:52
Like I love it when my colleagues have gone through a horse and can't figure out what it is you've x-rayed, they blocked, right? It's like we can't find out what's wrong with this horse but the horse isn't performing. 'cause to me that is where like acupuncture and the adjusting can really come in. 'cause it can be those subtle things that we can't detect with an x-ray or an ultrasound, right? But they're enough that is bothering that horse. So I think that is one of the beauties of acupuncture and chiropractic and I love it when those horses have had all that workout because I don't have to worry now. I'm like, okay, you ruled out all those things that you know, that are structural, that are bad that we ruled those out. So I love to go ahead and work on those horses. And so I would see that a lot at the track. And that was the other fun part. You'd go in there and be like, well this horse is this, this and this. They're like, you never even saw it walk. And like yeah, that's what it is. So, so it, it's a lot of fun to be able to go work on those athletes and keep 'em going, you know, and find those things out that we couldn't find with our traditional, you know, western medicine. So
17:53
You changed the whole career tra trajectory for that horse it with her being three, you know, that's, that's amazing. So I want to tell the story of kind of how I met you and how you worked on Gracie so that we can talk about that because that was so amazing for me coming from sort of a western background with horses to having you basically fix her. But it was in May of this year, I ran her outta barrel race. The first, the first run she made a great run. She placed fourth and then the second, second day she had a great run but she kind of like had some trouble with the ground and then got really sore after. So that next, that next day I pulled her from the race, I didn't run her. And then by the time I got her home, she was really, really lame in her hind right?
18:48
Like head bob, like couldn't really bring her leg forward. It was awful. And I thought she had torn something. I thought she was, I thought it was a career ending injury before we even got started, really. And so I was entered in a rodeo that weekend with Hay Garrison and I texted her and I'm like, Hailey, Gracie can't even walk. I don't know if I can I, you know, I'm not gonna able to run with you. And she's like, well, Carrie's coming out to work on my horse, why don't you see if she can, if she can work on yours too? So I brought her out to the garrisons and Gracie's still just LaMer than lame and you know, you had me walk her in some figure eights and it was just heartbreaking for me just walking her from the trailer to, to the barn.
19:33
I was like, oh my gosh, this horse is so in so much pain. And you worked on her and then you had me do some figure eights again and it was like magic. Like she was just fixed. She had no pain in her hind leg. She could cross her back legs over each other, she could lift that leg forward. She had no pain at all. And then I went on to place in a pro rodeo that like the next day, or I guess it was two days later, so I ended up going with Hailey and then we ended up placing in a rodeo. And so I just want to want you to walk the audience through what happened, like why was she so lame? Talk about the thing that you did on her back where you ran your acupuncture tool down her back and down her leg and what it like flared up as and then after you adjusted her, what, what that looked like.
20:29
Absolutely. So when I first look at a horse, you know, a lot of times when most of us think of a traditional lame mis exam, right? We think about flexing and trotting, right? And so WI don't do that as much I as much, I really look at 'em at a walk. And so what I have you do is when you're walking away from me when with a horse, I like to see how their pelvis is moving, right? So their pelvis should move side to side and up and down. And so I remember her right side was not moving at all like that right side was not moving. And then also when they're coming back to me, I like watching their head 'cause a horse normally their head should do a figure eight when they walk. And when you look at horses, if they have restrictions of their neck, their head just goes up and down.
21:07
So I look for that and then also as they're going by on the side, I look for how much they're reaching up underneath themselves. And a lot of times you can see some differences and I remember on Gracie like that right side, she wasn't bringing that right rear as far forward as her left rear. And then when we think about a pelvis and how it can move, so when a horse needs to stop, that pelvis needs to move up, right? When they go to extend that pelvis needs to move down and when they go to get a leg up underneath them, right, they gotta be able to pick that pelvis up and move that leg underneath them. So when we figure eight them a pelvis that moves normally and it's not like a crossover, right? We don't want 'em rolling over like a reigning horse.
21:44
But when I ask when you guys do those figure eights, it's like I want you to be able to see how well they're bringing that inside leg up underneath themselves and if the pelvis is not moving appropriately or the, or the hips restricted, they can't do it. So they'll that leg, they just kind of boom boom boom around versus bringing that inside leg way up underneath them. And then I'll have back up the horse. 'cause when they back, they should pick up their hind feet, right? They should be able to pick 'em up if they drag their toes, you know, that also tell is telling me they can't get that pelvis up. They're not being able to pick that leg up and move backwards. And so we do that. And then the other thing is that acupuncture scan, and I remember we were going down her acupuncture scan and it's like hitting those points for the stifle hawk, all of that along.
22:27
And that si, I mean she was not happy. She didn't and she kicked you and she went, yeah, that's right, she fired. I was like, okay, that's why you gotta be careful where you're standing and we would break down a four out of four. And so we did that and then I went ahead and adjusted her. I remember her pelvis and we did that adjusting and she kind of was like, whoa, when that adjusted and then it was like remember licking her lips and when then we did the acupuncture. And so I love doing both modalities together because when we're adjusting, we're working on the range of motion. And this is one thing that I think people have a misunderstanding of. When you think about adjusting or even chiropractic in humans, we're working on the nervous system. And so what happens when things are restricted, our muscles and muscles have two processes.
23:12
They have something that tells the muscles to constrict or contract, right? And something to tell it to release. And so what happens when there's a restriction, those muscles around the joint are contracted. And so they're contracted and now that joint can't move normally. And so when you adjust it's a, it's a high velocity, low amplitude adjustment. And so this is the other thing I just want people to be aware of. If somebody's adjusting their horse, the horse should get more relaxed, not not uptight. It's not a painful thing for these horses. And 'cause when you're doing that, you're actually releasing endorphins and horses should calm. So it's, you're not realigning bones if you're, if there's bones that need aligned, you need an orthopedic surgeon. It's literally working on the nervous system with this, you know, low amplitude, high velocity. It's basically if you hold your hands together, like in prayer and sneeze, that's kind of the, the pressure that's needed.
24:05
And so you go ahead and do that. You work on the nervous system with the adjusting, get those muscles to relax and then when you follow up with acupuncture, we follow up with acupuncture. It works not only the acupuncture on those points that work on specific areas of the body, even internally, but it also works on the fascia. 'cause those acupuncture points are in those places where you can work on the fascia to get it to, to relax. Also works on their nervous system. It works on releasing endorphins and things like that to make them feel better to help with the pain. And also depending on where you're at, they have other other points and uses. So by doing both, we're working on the nervous system, get that joint back in motion, then also working on the fascia and, and the discomfort with acupuncture to keep those muscles to go.
24:51
Whew, right? So it, it will hopefully hold. And so that's kind of what we worked on and I just, we did that and I remember Gracie took her out and it was, she was just like, oh my god, thank God. Like I, I can move my legs, my hip's moving now I can get my leg up underneath me and I'm ready to roll. So it, it can be unbelievably, I, I get to get better before and after videos. 'cause I've had those horses like that where you're like, oh I don't know about this. And then you adjust them and it's like a different horse. Like it's, it's amazing the impact that it can have with one session. And I remember we pre-scan her and it was, she was like, whatever, I'm not gonna, yeah, I don't care now you had
25:26
No problem.
25:27
Yeah, I'm not gonna kick you. Who was that?
25:29
Oh sorry. Was that just the giving her, you mentioned that in their pelvis there's a bunch of nerves that run underneath there and if it's stuck they they get irritated. Was that just taking some relief or some pressure off of the nerves?
25:46
Yep, yep. You're getting that joint moving now. So now that muscle's not sitting there in that contracted state and now that releases and now those muscles can move, the joint can move and everything just kind of goes whew. Okay. Because all 'cause all of the nerves or the hind limb come out, you know, basically in the lumbars to the, you know, your si and pelvic joints so in that lumbosacral area. So yeah. And when they have that restriction especially you know, in the neck and things, those nerves are getting, you know, they're, they're tight and you can get some inflammatory modulators and things there and so it can cause some challenges and that's why not so much in the hind, well you can see it in the hind end too. 'cause I have another, a horse in my father's actually that had restriction loss, all the hindquarter muscling and so we worked in, it all came back.
26:30
But like on necks especially like you can, I, if you go by and really start looking at horse's necks just tied to the horse trailer, you can see all the problems in a horse's neck just because all the nerves for those muscles are local and when they have a restriction that those nerves are not firing appropriately so they lose that muscle mass in their neck. So you can see that insty tension line. So even just looking at a horse standing there, you can see how restrictions are affecting 'em and it, you know, with how their muscling is. So,
27:03
So that brings up a good point that I, that I was just wondering about. What about horses that pull back? Do you see any consistency with horses that pull back in certain tension lines?
27:13
Yeah, a lot of pole issues, right? So they'll have, oh that pressure on their pole and a lot of times you can feel that you can go up and just see that tension. You can feel the tension in those muscles that go up to their pole. And so that can cause a lot of challenges. And I've seen a lot of horses and you know, like I say, some of my colleagues might not agree with me, but that's okay. But I, I've seen horses that are super spooky and if you adjust that pole that that is better. And I think part of it is because of the, how they're carrying their head, right? I, you know, I don't know the reason behind it, but I do know like horses, some of those horses are super spooky. They have a lot of issues there around some of those things you adjust that pole and it'll actually help them, you know, and I don't know if it's, but I think about it too, like think about having that tension right in your neck like you know you're gonna have a headache and you're, you know, you know how you're carrying your head and neck.
28:03
But yeah, you see a lot of, a lot of pole issues there. The other thing that you can see on a horse's neck, there's two curves when we think about two curves and a horse's neck. So there's the one we all think about with a pole and then there's the lower curve where actually where the th cervical vertebrae goes behind the scapula and then ties into the thorax. There's a curve there. And so some horses that have a hard time like collecting and rounding up, sometimes it can be due to lower cervical issues because in order for a horse to actually round up and collect, they have to be able to lift that lower cervical curve. And if joints are, and if things aren't moving appropriately or they have that restriction and that musculature isn't there where they can't do it, those horses will be those ones that just stay hollow.
28:49
And so that's something to think about too is that, and then the other thing when we think about with a horse also collecting another very important thing, we always think about the pole. Yeah that's important. But the other important thing is the TMJ joint, which people sometimes don't think about. And here's a little trivia fact, it's the only other joint in the horse's body that has a meniscus. So we have the stifle that has a meniscus and so A TMJ and so that meniscus can get moved around where that TMJ is not moving. But when think about when we ask a horse to to collect up, we pick him up, that bottom jaw is gonna be able to slide, right? It's gonna be able to slide so that horse can pick up that upper curve and then they have to be able to have those restriction free and that lower cervical curve so they can actually collect up and round up and maintain that correct posture.
29:40
So, you know, I've seen a lot of horses where that's, you know, the, maybe they're having a struggle getting that horse to collect up and you go ahead and adjust it and they have some TMJ and maybe they're hyoid and some neck things and then all of a sudden that horse is able to collect. So that's, that's one thing, you know, I just think people should think about if your horse was performing and doing, you know, they were collecting and all of a sudden they're not, you know, don't go, you know, put a tie down or a martingale or put some other head gear on 'em, get 'em checked out first. You know, there, there's a reason that horse has made that switch. And so that's the other thing that I really tell people too. If you have a horse has been performing and all of a sudden they're not, that horse is trying to tell you something.
30:21
So let's make sure we eliminate causes of that before you know, you go and go to some other training methods. 'cause I mean let's face it, some horses maybe need some training they forgot and they need to go back and I'm not saying that's not the case either. There are some of that, but sometimes, especially in those horses that are seasoned, if all of a sudden they're doing something like all of a sudden now wow, they're not collecting or they're, when I go to ask 'em, they're wanting stick that nose out there might be, there's probably a reason that horse is doing that. That's co you know, so let's get that looked at and fixed before we, you know, go to the training side of things.
30:55
Yeah and I'd imagine that's where a lot of behavior issues come from is if you don't listen to get it fixed and you just are continually trying it a new headgear or a bigger bit or something like that without addressing the pain, that's where horses can get anxious.
31:10
Yep.
31:12
So both of us barrel race and I kind of want to transition to talking about barrel racing and the performance horse and how we can keep barrel horses sound. So I know this is like a huge topic and it's, it's, we're not gonna get through all of it but you have given me some ideas about just like doing some ground polls, that kind of thing. And can you talk a little bit about that? How can we keep our older horses fit and sound and usable and keep their joints healthy?
31:47
Absolutely. So I think there's kind of a three-tiered approach. One is, which we'll come to in a little bit, is making sure like I think adjusting, making sure things are moving well and doing those pieces. But things you can do at home fall into two big buckets. I think one is how fit they are, which we'll get into some things you can do there. And then two is feet. I really, the one of the best things, and I know we've heard this a lot and it's becoming more to the forefront, you know, every year I think in equine world, but is the farrier work horses feet need to be balanced and it, it really does go back to that whole part of no foot, no horse. And if you, I mean, 'cause there's been horses that I've been asked to go adjust or work on and the first thing sometimes I'll do is pick up their feet.
32:29
Like when I was at the track one time I looked at this horse, I'm like, I can adjust 'em, but it's not gonna help you until you get this horse's feet fixed because they're, they're loading so imbalanced. Yeah. So I think that's one thing. Don't skimp on your, on your farrier. Make sure your farrier is a good farrier, shooing the horse appropriately for that horse's confirmation. And I do think it's good every year to do x-rays on your horse's feet every year for balance to look at angles and so you know where they're at. So I think that that's one thing that is easier said than done sometimes because even the best barriers have bad days. But that's one. The other thing as far as conditioning, I think there's a couple things I think we, you know, there's a lot of different, I guess opinions on, on conditioning, but when we think about our barrel horses, you know they are a little different than a race horse race horses.
33:18
They need that, that speed, that straight speed. We're not asking 'em to turn and but a barrel horses, right? We think about third barrel home, that's a lot of runs. So I think making sure your horse does have air, making sure you are do do those breezes is important. But the bike thing with barrel horses, right, we are asking 'em to go from full speed then all of a sudden collect up, get in the ground and get around a barrel, right? And where do we see a lot of problems in our barrel horses, people always talk about their sis their hawks, right? Those are the, the probably the biggest areas cycle somewhat too. And one thing that we don't do as well on the western side as I think they do on the English side is they really condition those horses. And when we think about us, especially with your background and your profession, what do people also complain about?
34:02
Lower back issues, right? Lower back and SI issues and what are the things we have 'em do, right? You gotta strengthen your core. If your core is strong, your back's gonna be better. Well it's no different for our equine athletes. If they have a good strong core that's gonna help protect their SI and lumbar area and their and their LS area. But we can't make a horse do a crunch, but what we can do is those ground poles and by doing ground poles you're, they, you are engaging that hind quarter and they're engaging their abdominal muscles in order to strengthen that, that core. And if you ever, and I'm not saying our barrel horses have to look like dressage horses, but if you look at dressage horses, they are so thick through the flank, right? Because it's all that core strength and, and so by doing those ground poles you, you're basically making those horses do crunches and, and I, it's quite inter interesting the first time you do those and they don't even have to be that high just you know, a few inches off the ground and you don't have to go over metal lo it's like the walk and trot and do that.
35:03
A lot of times these horses that we think are fit, 'cause I've done this with my own, you think they're fit and you gotta ask 'em go over those ground poles and they're hitting them right and they shouldn't be hitting 'em. So, so that's one thing that I think is really good. I think doing the hills going up and down hills as well is good because you're strengthening that top line, keeping those top line muscles that go down and all the way hooked down into our hawks really in good shape. And by doing those things and then making sure they have the air, you know, 'cause they do need the air, those help as well. So those are just some, some little things they can do. There are stretches that I think are really important too if done appropriately when you think about their necks and their backs, especially their si, there's a stretch you can do to stretch kind of warm up that si area by making 'em extend and flex that si that's always a good thing to do.
35:51
Couple, three times before you get on 'em it kind of warms up that area. Same thing with neck, those carrot stretches, as long as they're done right, a carrot stretch, the horse's ears should stay level. They should be able to stay level and come all the way to their cinch. And so if you go to do that with your horse and their nose is coming out, that tells you there's something going on in their neck. But I see pictures with carrot stretches where people have the treat too high and the horse is following it with their nose. Don't do that. Make sure you have it low. So they keep that head, you know, ears straight and you can do that both sides. That's another thing to do to warm up. And then the other thing to think about, you know when we think about stretching is don't do your stretching before you run. That's something we do after. And and you might remember this, but I like when I was a kid I think, well maybe it was the nineties, remember when it was they were like, you know, make sure you stretch before you go. Oh gosh. And then people were doing all the stretches and then having all kinds of injuries, right? Yes.
36:47
Because it inhibits your muscle. Yeah, exactly that
36:49
Correct. So that's one thing. Don't do that. That's another thing you, when I see people do that before they run it makes me cringe 'cause it's like oh my goodness, you're the whole, whole dynamic there. Don't do that. Yes.
37:00
And then the other thing I think that we gotta keep in mind that we don't do as good in some disciplines as others. You know, and this is one thing they really do well on the race horse side, you think about the amount of muscle a horse has and when we ask them to go and that heat, there's so much heat in those muscles after we accident, ask them to go perform to make sure we cool him out. Don't take him when he is panting and hot and sweaty and time to the trailer and leave him there. Right? Cool him out. So that's another thing to help keep those horses healthy and sound, you know, make sure you cool 'em out, walk 'em as well as hot walkers, right? Yeah. But do those things cool those muscles out so they're not getting that tightness and problems like, you know, because it's no different than us. You go climb a lot or run and then you go, just go sit on the couch. How do you feel when you go to get up? Right? Not very good. So
37:47
How long do you recommend that people cool their horses out after a run?
37:50
So I think the main thing with those is you wanna cool 'em out until you go to touch 'em and they're not hot, right? They don't have to be, you know what I mean? You can feel that it's just getting those muscles cool. 'cause if you start to feel, especially on their chest and up on their rump, that's, those are big muscles masses. So when you go and feel and it's cooler and, and I get it, it's hard when it's a hundred degrees but it's, you know what I mean, it's one of those where it's like okay, that's what you think would be appropriate for the ambient temperature. But just until they're kind of cool in that air, they've caught their air, you know, so yeah. And a super fit horse doesn't take long to cool out. That's the other thing to have people keep in mind. Like if your horse is taking a long time to cool out, either they're not fit or there's something else going on. So
38:30
Yeah, I I love that you bring that up because I think that's pretty common and we spend a lot of time warming our horses up but we don't spend as much time on the cool down and really flushing out all of that, all of those metabolic waste products that occurred during the run.
38:47
Yep. So because their horses will go an they will go anaerobic, you know? You know even though when you think quarter horses, the difference between quarter horses and thoroughbreds is the length that they're able to go aerobic versus anaerobic on their muscles. But even in a barrel run a small one, they're still gonna hit some anaerobic muscles. Oh absolutely. They're gonna have to come in and so yeah, it's so important to cool those out.
39:10
Yes, absolutely. And I know I've asked you about this before, but what about warmup time? So in humans in human performance there's this recommendation that your warmup ends no later than 15 minutes before your competition. So if you're gonna, if you're a track athlete then you wanna warm up and then still be warm at least 15 minutes before you run. If you don't, then the benefits of that warmup, you know, the increased muscle blood flow, the increased oxygen, blood flow, all that, it's not there. What is that? What does that look like in horses? How long? I know some horses take less time to warm up. Gracie took quite a bit more time than the younger horse that I had as a backup horse just because of her age and that's how I liked her to feel. I liked her to feel really warm before I ran her. But what is your recommendation?
40:04
Yeah, there is that as well. No, it's true. Like one of the worst things you can do for a horse. Same thing. Go warm 'em up, get 'em nice, nice and warm, maybe a little light sweat on 'em and then leave 'em at the trailer and come back in half an hour. Ev you ate all that. So it's kind of the same thing. I think it's always good to do what you're gonna do if you're gonna elope 'em and get 'em, get 'em nice and warm, then you know, before that run bring 'em down, just walk 'em for that, you know, just walk okay 10, 15 minutes and then go and let you know. And I know it varies 'cause some of us have horses that are super hot that if you do that, you know they need a lot more lo downtime from the behavioral, the focus side. Yeah. So you take those things in consideration. But I think the biggest thing is just don't get 'em all warm and then just go let 'em stand somewhere that that is the big thing. 'cause you are gonna lose that benefit. And if anything you already started that cool down process if you do that and now all of a sudden you're gonna put 'em back in a situation, you know where they gotta use those muscles and I think you can get into some, some issues there with that. Yeah. So
40:59
Yeah, just like with with humans it's
41:01
Like with humans. Yep. Yep. Yeah.
41:04
Okay so speaking of keeping horses sound and fit as they get older, let's talk confirmation from a vet's perspective. So this is something that I'm like so fascinated with and you brought up a horse that is very, very well known that actually doesn't have that great of confirmation. And I just was like, well I wanna know what, what good confirmation looks like in a barrel horse. So what do you look for in a barrel horse to make it successful, lasting, you know, as not just successful in the, in the arena but that they're sound for a long period of time? Because I think that's what everybody is looking for,
41:40
Right? And I think the big challenge, which is unfortunate what's happening to our running quarterhorse breed is we're breeding the bone out of them, right? So I think one of the big things we gotta look at is bone and foot. Like there there's that proportion. So the last thing when I think about a horse, if you got a 16 hand horse and he wears a double OT shoe, you know that's not good. So I think looking sometimes proportionally does the foot, the bone match the frame of the horse is a big one, right? When we think about our barrel racing horses, what are we we're asking them to be able to collect up, get down, get underneath themselves, right? And not, you know, even on a horse that does it, a correct list taught to do it correctly as well as has good confirmation, they're still gonna be wear and tear.
42:24
So think about those horses that are super long in the back, they're gonna struggle, right? They're gonna struggle. Or a horse that's super upright behind like almost post legged behind, yeah they're gonna have a heck of a heart. It doesn't mean they can't do it, it doesn't mean that there aren't horses out there competing at the highest level with a that confirmation. 'cause sometimes heart can over heart and grit can overrule sometimes confirmation you can have the perfect confirmation in no heart and he'll get outrun by a horse that maybe doesn't but has the heart. But in general you think about, you know, you want that shorter top line and longer underline, those are those horses that can really reach but also get up underneath themselves making sure they have a good slope to their, their shoulder and and you know, and they're also with their hawks in the back.
43:08
'cause you know, if you have a horse that's too upright, think of the wear and tear that that's gonna have, whether it be on the front end or the hind end, but especially on the hind end, if you have a really post legged horse behind, they're gonna struggle getting up underneath themselves, right? Like say once again it doesn't mean they, there aren't some that can do it, but if you're looking for those prospects, like that's something that I wouldn't like too much. And pigeon toed horses, I mean they're gonna have, they're gonna bench knee, those horses are gonna have challenges on the front end because just the concussion, you know, and it also depends on what you're doing with a horse. If you're gonna futurity a colt at three woo, they better have some pretty good confirmation because if they have things that aren't, they're still growing.
43:47
So you're gonna have more wear and tear. If you have a horse that maybe doesn't have perfect confirmation, but you're not really gonna start running him hard till he is older, you probably can get away with some more things. But I think no matter what with that confirmation, this really does go back to the, the feet, making sure that that horse is shot appropriately, has the right angles, right? We're not having horses land wrong 'cause it, it blows my mind how many horses I'll pick up those front feet and their heels aren't even. So you know, they're landing harder on one side versus the other because of how that horse is shot. And you have those concussions now going all the way up the leg. Right? Or making sure, you know, when you think about Hines, most horses all, you know, if a horse, when you look at the A QHA, that Sorel horse we think of that they have with all their thing, like that horse is supposedly the perfect confirmation.
44:39
But when you look at him, it's like not really 'cause a horse on the hind end, they are gonna talk just to tch most of them. And that's okay. But you see a horse that's really cow hawked, he's gonna interfere white with how he moves. But it's also, you know, if you have a horse that gets a little flare and your shoe isn't taking that off him, next thing you know you're gonna accentuate that. Right? So, you know, that is a big, like I just see that so much is just how, you know, chronically wrong shoeing can cause so many problems because of the physics of it. And that goes back to that, you know, 10,000 not so good steps. So, you know, I think that's the big piece. Or seeing horses. Okay, yeah, they are a little pigeon towed. Okay, you gotta work with that. You can, if you try to make that horse straight, you're gonna create problems too, right? So you have to shoot at that confirmation. But I think when you're thinking about confirmation for barrel horses, I do like those little short back, long underline, you know, get that good slope, you know, a good slope to their hawks, not post legged and, and good and straight in the front end, you know, with a, with a proportional frame, right? So those would be things to think about.
45:50
Okay, so you have a couple of studs. Tell us about Jess. Make a mark and dream big. Win big, dream big win big.
46:01
I love it.
46:02
Yeah, I am. We are so lucky that we have you and your dad and your racehorse program here in southwestern Montana. I mean we don't, we don't have that kind of opportunity a lot of times in Montana just because of where we live. You know, Montana's so rural, but when I saw Jess make a Marks poster on the Purina countertop, I just was so excited. And I remember, I don't know if I texted you or what, but I'm like, is this yours? Like this is a really cool bread stud. And so tell 'em, tell us about him. Tell us about Dream and yeah, I just wanna hear about their confirmation and what they're like.
46:43
Okay, well this is fun. So just make a mark his, we'll go talk about his mother and Grand Dam. So we'll start with the Grand Dam. Okay. The Grand Dam was a mayor named Ling. She was by first down Dash, she's buried on her place, but my folks purchased her outta the Heritage Place Sale got a lot of years ago. And like I say by first down Dash and her, her second AM is Girls Secrets, who was a world champion and girling produced a lot of stakes horses for, for us and was just a great producing mare. And then her daughter, girl just say it or girls don't say it. That's right. Gosh, sorry, that was on The other ones Girls Don't Say Is is by Tre. Say we bred girling to Tre Say and had Girl Girls Don't say, and she was a runner that ma I mean she's a stakes horse and a running machine and there is a horse at this point, and we'll go back apolitical J So we decided, dad always had the foresight for these studs coming outta racing.
47:41
Like he always could pick the ones like yeah, they, they ran well, they're gonna, he knows, you know, looking at the pedigree and how the horses made, like they're gonna, they're gonna be something. And so dad booked a contract with a political Jess when he came out of race training and girl, you know, girls don't say we bred her. And unfortunately she aborted that year. And so we lost the cult but bred her back and we got Jess make a mark and he is, he was a stakes horse for us. He was a grade three stakes horse, won multiple races, ran in the nineties and outran some big time runners. And the fun part about that is that apolitical Jess Tre say cross in the running world is huge. 'cause apolitical, Jess surpassed, I think he's the most producing sire of all time. He's, you know, surpassed first down dash and all those, his cults have run out over 72 million.
48:35
And so, and the funny part is Mark looks exactly like apolitical Jess. They are the same. They, it is so funny. They're the identical breed. They're not like Marks like, I think we measured him. Is he 15? One short little back, like just, and they are, they are runners. And then of course with the T trace a side, right? We know how Tracee not only was a big runner on the track, my mother always loved Tre say. So that's where that came from. And you know, also burning it up in the barrel pen. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And Mark has the best little, he's a, he's a big goober. He is got the best personality. I just love him. We're gonna, I'm gonna try to start him on the barrels this year, so it's fun. He can Oh cool. Yeah, he, he just is, he's just a really cool boy and and an athlete like he is so fast and just a lot of fun.
49:24
And his first crop of cols hit the ground this year. Super excited. I'm gonna be a nervous wreck. I've read my little, one of my little barrel, she was winner on the track and a barrel money earn to him, so I'm, I'm gonna be a nervous wreck when she folds. But super excited about that. So, and like if anybody ever wants to come see him, it'd be great. He's, he's a cool horse and he is gonna do, I know he is gonna produce well 'cause like I say, we had the whole bottom line of his family. They all, you know, they all produced and were all really good horses. So. And then dad's venture on the other horse, dream big, win big and dad and Josh Abbott, they their partners in this big thoroughbred friend of ours who ski Jos and uses a lot of our race horses for ski jarring.
50:02
So it's a lot of fun. But he is a big thoroughbred horse. You'd never know he is thoroughbred, he is just shy. What is he, 16 three is what he is short back, good Bone Bay and what dad and them have done, they're working with Warren Johnson who a lot of people know out of Jardine who has a lot of half draft mares. So they're breeding him to bred him to a lot of half draft mares to just be ranch horses. He has got the best Dr the best mind dream. He didn't run 'cause he had an injury. He has a lot of run in his pedigree and he, you know, his damn produced on the track. But we're using him for that. And so he's had, he has one bull on the ground from last year we bred one marijuana, Josh's MAs and he's quite classy so they, they're excited about that for kind of good mountain and using horses. So that's the story with the boys. They're both big goobers and yeah, super nice studs. So,
50:57
Okay. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Yeah, and we've talked about that. I'm really excited to bring to breed Gracie to Jess, make a mark and hearing you talk about his maternal line, being in your family for so long and and producing really great horses. And then being by apolitical Jess, I am so excited for that. That's something that I'm passionate about and I think, I hope that this is the foundation of my barrel races for the, for the future is to keep Gracie's line really, really strong in the maternal, the maternal side of it.
51:33
Oh absolutely. They will cross so well and the fun part we're gonna is his, he gets cold of age. We'll get him in all the barrel incentives too. Like that's our plan because I know he'll, his mind is so good. Like it's just, you know, he, that's what's so awesome about it. Not only does he have to run in athleticism, but he has a good mind. But then again, so did all of the cults out of those two mares. Right. So it's just, that's what's fun about it I guess. And that's why my folks, we kind of lick at him and it's, it's kind of exciting 'cause it's like years of breeding on their end too. Right, right. And you know, to have him there and we're just so excited to see what his cults do. So, and I know him and Gracie will cross unbelievably and it's gonna be so much fun. See that baby.
52:13
I know. Ugh, I'm so excited. I, that's like my, all my dreams for her now are just like in her babies. And I'm like you, I'm a nervous wreck. I actually, for her first baby, I, I think I was fired by everybody in my family for just being crazy because I had a halter monitor on her and it went off every single time she laid down over, it was either 30 seconds or 60 seconds. So I'd be like three in the morning and the halter monitor would cough and I would just out of, you know, just sleep in my eyes, just run out there, whatever. And she'd just be taking a rest and she'd, you know, come see me. And then when she finally did have her have her baby, everything went so perfect. Like it was very short and easy and perfect. I'm like, I really stressed out for months over this. And she was so good at it, she had no problems, you know, it wasn't anything stressful. And my friend Paige always told me that, she's like, she's just gonna, you're just gonna wake up one day and there's gonna be a baby there. Like she's gonna be fine. You just have to stop worrying about it. So
53:18
That's what dad tells me. I'm like, I know. He's like, how many babies have you Del been around and delivered? How many mares and folds have we had? I'm like, I know, but it's different. This is different. This is Brimes and Marks.
53:28
Yeah, I know it's, it is, I, I really get that. If you don't mind, what are some things that you do for me? Care preventatively or just me care in general when you're trying, when you do have a high stakes baby like that, that you care so much about?
53:44
Well there's a few things. I think one is nutrition, making sure they have really good nutrition. And this isn't to say that to endorse a product, but we use platinum. I love Platinum's mineral. I mean it's just a great, you know, they're great product, making sure that they're there. But also balancing, we don't want our meres too heavy either. Like they need to be in good shape. You don't wanna let 'em get obese. That's a big one there. We always make sure with those mares and babies, we fold 'em inside. We have monitors so when they get closer, getting 'em into a stall ahead of time, making sure they get comfortable right. So they're, they're you know, relaxed and in that place as well. Making sure with the baby or the mare, we always do a SAA, you can do that coming up a few weeks or a couple weeks before they fold.
54:27
Making sure there's no signs of like titis, there's some things you can check in the mare before they get ready to fold. Making sure they're good there, you know, once they fold it is true. You let let the ma do her thing unless you have to. 'cause sometimes you know, you don't wanna interfere too much. But then it's making sure too that we use the full bucket full starter, which is a probiotic that we give them to make sure that they're getting that in in hand. We got 15, 20 years ago, that's a problem with Cho. So we do metro isol in those cols just to make sure we don't have any cholesterol issues. Making sure you're keep their navel in good shape is a big thing there. And then once the Marla passes the placenta making sure they get and you get 'em, you also wanna de-worm 'em within that first little bit as well because that'll help decrease some of the strongyloides that can go to the baby.
55:15
So those are some, some things there and you know, making sure they're, you know, they just stay happy and healthy and they get up and nurse and checking an IgG. A lot of people don't do it, but checking that IgG to make sure those babies get that passive transfer is huge and we, you know, you have up to 24 hours for that baby to actually absorb that colostrum in their gut. We usually try to check the IgG about, I don't know, around 18 hours because if they don't get it, sometimes you can give 'em oral versus having to give them plasma. But it's such a cheap insurance because what happens is, and this is the sad part, if they don't get passive transfer, it's pretty easy fix. You can give them, you know, plasma if you need to IV plasma and the baby's gonna be fine.
55:57
If you don't then those are those cults that break with diarrhea at three to five days of age. And now you could have a, you know, if you send 'em to a referral center have three, three to $5,000 in 'em and still end up with a dead cult because they didn't get that passive transfer. So I just think those are just such simple insurance and it's easy. If they don't, you can handle it and the baby will be fine. But if you don't you can get in a big wreck. And you know, in all reality it is true. I'm thinking of all the years, God my folks been raising babies for long as I can remember, 30 plus years. And I think we've had one or two in that time period and usually we fall anywhere from four to 12 mares a year and like we've had one or two that haven't had paths of transfer. So it's not that it happens that often, but when it does it's a huge consequence. And so it's just easy cheap insurance. So
56:44
Those, okay, so there was one thing that you mentioned that I didn't, I haven't heard of before. So you give the marere ban mean after she plus passes the placenta. Is that in the vein? And why do you do that?
56:56
'cause mares are crampy, right? Like they're crampy but if you give it before they pass the placenta, then they, the won't stops pass and then you're gonna have end up with a retained placenta. So that's bad. And you can do an oral, you could do an oral too but you know, and some mares don't need it but it's just something that we do just because those mares, you know, some they'll be cramping and it depends like on their pain tolerance, like any, like humans, they're all individual 'cause some mares will be up and down a lot just 'cause that uterus is cramping, you know, afterwards. But it's, that's the other thing to really make sure is check that placenta, make sure they passed all of it because you can see the horns and the babies always are in one horn. One will be big and then you'll find the other little one. But making sure all of that has passed, that's always a good thing to check as well. And then you know, your mare's. Okay, so, okay.
57:40
Okay. Oh my gosh, that is so helpful. I'm, I'm really glad that we talked about that and I'm sure I'll have so many other questions for you this spring, but I'm glad that we're able to touch on some different tips that people might not know and and be doing. Okay. Do you have any questions that you would like me to ask you that you, that didn't come up or, or anything that you just wanna say as being a, a performance vet?
58:07
Yeah, I think, you know, the big thing for me, like especially when I started to do all of this is just the importance of, I really do think the adjusting that medical manipulation by keeping those joints moving and I can give you this is, you know, it's, it is anecdotal but it's not. So my father, when he was at Prairie Meadows there one season I was going every god I was going every two to three weeks to Iowa, I'd work on his and work on a bunch of clients horses and we followed those horses for the race meet. And what I'm gonna say is not only my father but the horses that I worked on routinely, they did not need injecting. Like it was pretty amazing the difference on those horses on the maintenance that they did not need that was quote unquote we call maintenance.
58:53
Like we love to say, oh we need to inject them on a maintenance schedule. And I'm not saying that some horses don't need it there, there are cases, I'm not saying that at all, but it was pretty amazing to follow this cohort of horses by doing that, adjusting every two to three weeks, you know, and doing acupuncture when we needed to and just following those horses gate, 'cause I have some boots you can put on a horse too that can measure how evenly they're landing. You know, by tracking those things. We were seeing less issues with those horses during that race meet. And so I thought that was pretty cool that you were able to pick up subtle, subtle things and just, you know, address 'em and not having as much need for, you know, dealing with things, you know that might be coming up as a problem.
59:37
So I think it's huge that we do those things for these athletes, keep 'em moving. Well knowing that it might be, you know, it can be quick, right? Like that's the funny part. It might just be one or two little tweaks you have to make, but it was quite impressive to see that difference in those horses by following 'em. And that's something I'm probably gonna do with my thesis is kinda look for a cohort of horses to follow and by doing these things, so we'll do it in a more scientific, you know, this is like say anecdotal just from the a few horse, you know, my focuses and then a few other barns. But it, I'm gonna try to do a more kind of rigorous scientific study for my thesis following some of those horses this summer. So kinda my plan, but
01:00:17
Well, and I think that that's just right in line with what I see in humans. So if you have a painful knee, it's gonna be the other knee or the other hip that goes out next because you're gonna be compensating or if you, you know, same thing with a hip, if you have a painful hip, it's gonna be the opposite side knee and it's all these compensation things where if you address it first then you're not going to compensate and then you're not gonna end up with the low back pain or whatever. And so I I think that there's probably enough human research that you could, you know, on that, on the, if you address something then you don't get the, the contralateral compensatory limp or, or whatever that you could, you could make a really cool study with that. So I'm so excited and I think that will be really life changing for a lot of these young horses that are starting at competing at such a high level. So young, you know, the maturity thing is huge right now and maybe that's the same as race horses. I know the race race horses is young, so if, if we can just like your race horses, if we can start working on these maturity horses young and keep 'em healthy and sound, maybe they're not gonna need hawk injections at four or five or six. Yep. Yeah.
01:01:33
Yep. Exactly. And you know, and that's the thing, it's like with the injection thing, it's super controversial, right? With you know, whether you, you just gotta go to a Facebook page right with about barrel racing and see the controversy around things and it's injections, steroids definitely have their place and I'm not saying they don't, but I also think the other thing I guess I wanna put out there, and I don't do this, but if you have a horse that needs an injection, there are other options. There's biologics today, you don't necessarily have to put a steroid in a joint, right? Whether it's pro stride, you know, PRP, there's a bunch of different ones out there or tous and thinks the other one that actually the biologics can actually help heal the joint when it needs something. But it's not as instantaneous as a steroid. So that's why a lot of times people will not do that right away.
01:02:20
They will, you know, say I need to go now so I'm gonna stick steroid in my joint and go. Whereas some of these other biologics take a little longer. But they're actually, when you look at some of the research, the human research in other countries, 'cause we don't do a lot of it here in the United States, it's pretty mind-boggling how like with athletes like, especially in like it was South Korea, Japan, like if there's an injury, a lot of times they'll do one of these biologics and they versus a steroid and they're not seeing those wear and tear down the road, right? Because we're addressing it, not just putting a bandaid to decrease the inflammation and we all know steroids can degrade the joint as well. So, so I think by, once again this goes back to that integrative approach, making sure we're doing, you know, doing the manipulation, make sure they're moving well, make sure we have a good farrier, making sure we're physically fit, have good nutrition.
01:03:08
But then also when there is an issue let's don't, you know, let's think about what would be the better long-term for this horse and looking at some of the biologics and some of those other pieces out there and getting a diagnosis. I think that's the other thing. Sometimes we get impatient and like, well we didn't do well, I'm gonna throw some steroids in a joint and, and go versus all right let's figure out why, you know, what we can do to hopefully prevent that And you know, it's challenging 'cause time is money and I know there's a lot of money in in horses and things, but just, you know, something to challenge people to think about.
01:03:38
Absolutely. Okay, so if someone wants to get ahold of you, how can they get ahold of you? What is your, your clinic is based in Twin Bridges Montana, but you travel your travel but so Twin Bridges Montana, but how far do you travel and kind of how can people get a hold of you also share your Facebook page as well.
01:03:59
Okay, great. So it's cheap performance but it's spelled Qi so U usually people know how to pronounce it but it's cheap performance is my Facebook page and you can reach me there or you my phone number, you can just gimme a call. It's 4 0 6 6 0 0 1 5 9 4. And I will, what I do, I travel a lot and what I try to do is group horses. So I mean I've gone as far, like when Miles City's in with the race meet, I'll go to Mile City and work on horses you know, for a weekend. So it's one of those where if I get a few horse group of horses I'll kind of come anywhere. So okay, we can make anything work there and people can come to me or I can go to you and I, I love working on 'em and spending time and just, you know, my other thing with people is, you know, it's never a one and done so you, you know, it's one of these things we, you know, we're asking our horses to do a lot of, you know, perform for us. So a lot of times it's not one and done so just something to keep in mind too, so.
01:04:52
Okay. Alright. Well Carrie, thank you so much. I think this episode has so many gems in it for everybody, for riders, for barrel racers, for people on the racetrack, people looking to breed, you brought a ton of value. So thank you so much and I will link to your Facebook page and provide your contact information in the show notes.
01:05:14
Well I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It's always good to see you.
01:05:18
Yes. Alright, thank you so much.
